Comments

Brandon S wrote on Dec 19, 2007 6:03 PM:

" Thanks Wade for the kind words. I had been away from my computer for about a week and had left this comment page up. When I refreshed it, my old message was resent for some reason. I did not plan it that way but it happened, sorry to all, except Wade. He needs to read everything twice anyway. I really enjoyed reading most of the posts here and believe in separation of Church & State. Thanks Rev. Bess for the original piece and the debate it brought forth. Merry Christmas and God bless all, including Wade who needs double. "




God Bless Howard Bess wrote on Dec 19, 2007 3:14 PM:

" And everyone else, for that matter. Merry Christmas. "




To Wade wrote on Dec 19, 2007 3:13 PM:

" Can't YOU come up with something more enlightening than calling people moronic, cowardly, Godless, and hypocritical? How is that Christian? You make Christians like me who can actually ready and understand history look bad because we get painted with the same brush as you. "




Deists? YES wrote on Dec 19, 2007 3:09 PM:

" Yes they were deists, and they would tell people openly that they were. George Washington was in fact a member of the Episcopal church, and he openly told people it was for social reasons. Can you actually look at the direct quotes by all of these Founders and call them lies? You don't want to know anything, you wish only to speak. That which you know you ignore because it is inconvenient. That which you do not know you invent because it serves your purposes. "




To Wade wrote on Dec 19, 2007 3:05 PM:

" Imagine that, politicians saying one thing in private journals and to their friends and another thing to their constituents? George Washington was even a vestryman at his church, so he has to be a Christian, right? Wrong. He even said himself that the only reason he held the post was so that he could be a judge in the court also located at the church. He never in life took communion, and actively refused all chances to do so, waiting outside the church for his wife as she did so. Get over it - they were deists and said asmuch. "




P.S. wrote on Dec 19, 2007 2:31 PM:

" Brandon S, you posted the same comment twice, on the 12th and again on the 18th. Can't you think of anything more original than your first moronic comment? I'm done here, the only thing these posts serve to do is bring unwarranted attention to howeird bess' godless rants regarding politics and religion. You may have him, none of it's worth the time it takes to read it nor the sweat off my . . . which you may . . . Yeah, you'll read between the lines and talk negatively about me in my absence. "




Wadeout wrote on Dec 19, 2007 2:24 PM:

" Mark you have no imagination just as you have no guts. You hide behind “K” denying the hypocrisy of calling others cowardly for anonymity while you remain anonymous and post as though you never wrote that. Your stupidity in these matters is astonishing, even to the extent that you question a man's name. Tell me, were you born a yahoo or did you study diligently to become one? As for the rest of you Philistines, continuing a dialogue with you is meaningless. Your unprovoked assaults on Christianity shall earn you the consequences you so richly deserve. My hands are washed. "




Deists? NO! wrote on Dec 19, 2007 2:00 PM:

" South Carolina Pierce Butler- Episcopalian Charles Pinckney- Episcopalian Charles C. Pinckney- Episcopalian John Rutledge- Episcopalian Virginia John Blair- Presbyterian, Episcopalian James Madison- Episcopalian George Mason- Episcopalian James McClurg- Presbyterian Edmund J. Randolph- Episcopalian George Washington- Episcopalian John Wythe- Episcopalian "




Deists? Really! wrote on Dec 19, 2007 1:59 PM:

" New Jersey David Brearly- Episcopalian Jonathan Dayton- Presbyterian, Episcopalian William C. Houston- Presbyterian William Livingston- Presbyterian William Paterson- Presbyterian New York Alexander Hamilton- Presbyterian, Episcopalian John Lansing, Jr.- Dutch Reformed Robert Yates- Dutch Reformed North Carolina William Blount- Episcopalian, Presbyterian William R. Davie- Presbyterian Alexander Martin- Presbyterian Richard D. Spaight, Sr.- Episcopalian Hugh Williamson- Presbyterian Pennsylvania George Clymer- Quaker, Episcopalian Thomas Fitzsimons- Roman Catholic Jared Ingersoll- Presbyterian Thomas Mifflin- Quaker, Lutheran Gouverneur Morris- Episcopalian Robert Morris- Episcopalian James Wilson- Episcopalian, Presbyterian "




Deists? wrote on Dec 19, 2007 1:56 PM:

" Connecticut William Johnson- Anglican, Presbyterian Robert Sherman- Congregationalist Oliver Ellsworth- Congregationalist Delaware Richard Bassett- Methodist Gunning Bedford, Jr.- Presbyterian Jacob Broom- Lutheran John Dickinson- Quaker, Episcopalian George Read- Episcopalian Georgia Abraham Baldwin- Congregationalist, Presbyterian William Few- Methodist William Houston- Episcopalian William Leigh Pierce- Episcopalian Maryland Daniel Carroll- Roman Catholic Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer-Episcopalian Luther Martin- Episcopalian James McHenry- Presbyterian John F. Mercer- Episcopalian Massachusetts +Elbridge Gerry- Episcopalian Nathaniel Gorham- Congregationalist Rufus King- Episcopalian Caleb Strong- Congregationalist New Hampshire Nicholas Gilman- Congregationalist John Langdon- Congregationalist "




Mark K wrote on Dec 18, 2007 5:43 PM:

" Well, I guess this doesn't leave much to the imagination about the founding fathers and their intent. I wonder what happened to that blowhard "Wade Iverson," or whatever his real name is. "




Brandon S wrote on Dec 18, 2007 5:31 PM:

" If Wade or Wadein is a Christian I can understand why there is a seperation of Church & State. Didn't Jesus try to win hearts and minds? Some of these statements reminds me of Samuel Clemens saying, "If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian" "




Alexis de Tocqueville wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:25 PM:

" "They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point" -Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835 "




But what about Justice David Brewer wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:24 PM:

" In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it...Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are...Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all." "




But what about Patrick Henry? wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:20 PM:

" When given explicit chances to embrace a Christian-nation, the founders rejected it. There were some, however, who wished a connection between church and State. Patrick Henry, for example, proposed a tax to help sustain "some form of Christian worship" for the state of Virginia. But Jefferson and other statesmen did not agree. In 1779, Jefferson introduced a bill for the Statute for Religious Freedom which became Virginia law. Jefferson designed this law to completely separate religion from government. None of Henry's Christian views ever got introduced into Virginia's or U.S. Government law. "




Church and State... wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:15 PM:

" Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." "




More Paine wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:13 PM:

" "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. " "




Historians wrote on Dec 18, 2007 1:09 PM:

" Historians, who deal with facts rather than wishes, paint an entirely different picture of the religious composition of America during its formative years than the image of a nation founded on "biblical principles" that modern Bible fundamentalists are trying to foist upon us. Our founding fathers established a religiously neutral nation, and a tragedy of our time is that so many people are striving to undo all that was accomplished by the wisdom of the founding fathers who framed for us a constitution that would protect the religious freedom of everyone regardless of personal creed, or lack thereof. "




But what about the Pilgrims?, pt 3 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:58 PM:

" Historian Richard Hofstadter says that "perhaps as many as ninety percent of the Americans were unchurched in 1790" (Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, New York Alfred A. Knopf, 1974, p. 82) and goes on to say that "mid-eighteenth century America had a smaller proportion of church members than any other nation in Christendom," noting that "in 1800 about one of every fifteen Americans was a church member". Historian James MacGregor Burns agrees with these figures, noting that "there had been a `very wintry season' for religion every where in America after the Revolution". "




But what about the Pilgrims?, pt 2 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:56 PM:

" As for the religious beliefs of the general population in pre- and post-revolutionary times, it wasn't nearly as Christian as most people think. Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society (a national organization of Christian lawyers) has admitted that there is little proof to support the claim that the colonial population was overwhelmingly Christian. "Not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders more deist than Christian," Buzzard wrote, "but the actual number of church members was rather small. Perhaps as few as five percent of the populace were church members in 1776". "




But what about the Pilgrims? wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:55 PM:

" Confronted with evidence like the foregoing, diehard fundamentalists will argue that even if the so-called founding fathers did not purposefully establish a Christian nation our country was founded by people looking for religious liberty, and our population has always been overwhelmingly Christian, but even these points are more dubious than most Christian-nation advocates dare suspect. Admittedly, some colonists did come to America in search of religious freedom, but the majority were driven by monetary motives. They simply wanted to improve their economic status. "




The Framers wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:52 PM:

" The document approved at the constitutional convention mentioned religion only once, in Article VI, Section 3, which stated that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." If the delegates at the convention had truly intended to establish a "Christian nation," why would they have put a statement like this in the constitution and nowhere else even refer to religion? If it was to be a Christian nation, why was mention of Christ, Christianity, or God otherwise entirely left out? "




Drafting the Constitution wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:49 PM:

" Some Christians were of course involved in the shaping of our nation, but their influence was minor compared to the ideological contributions of the Deists who pressed for the formation of a secular nation. In describing the composition of the delegations to the constitutional convention, historian Clinton Rossiter said this about their religious views: "Although it had its share of strenuous Christians...the gathering at Philadelphia was largely made up of men...who could take their religion or leave it along...The Convention of 1787 was highly rationalist and even secular in spirit. "




More recently wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:46 PM:

" For a more recent perspective, the words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy hysteria. "




The Treaty of Tripoli wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:43 PM:

" The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous. There is no record of any debate or dissension, nor public outcry following its repeated publication. "




Benjamin Franklin wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:41 PM:

" ...delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, a Deist, not a Christian. "




Ethan Allen wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:39 PM:

" ...whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." "




James Madison wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:37 PM:

" James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "




Thomas Jefferson, pt 3 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:36 PM:

" The irony is that the Christian leaders of Jefferson's time knew where he stood on "biblical principles," and they fought desperately to prevent his election. Saul Padover's biography related the bitter opposition that the clergy mounted against Jefferson in the campaign of 1800: “The religious issue was dragged out, and stirred up flames of hatred and intolerance. Clergymen, mobilizing their heaviest artillery of thunder and brimstone, threatened Christians with all manner of dire consequences if they should vote for the 'infidel' from Virginia. This was particularly true in New England, where the clergy stood like Gibraltar against Jefferson." "




Thomas Jefferson, pt 2 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:33 PM:

" Jefferson didn't just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was "the inspired word of God"; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites". Yet people try to rewrite history to make it appear that men like Thomas Jefferson had intended to build our nation on "biblical principles." "




Thomas Jefferson wrote on Dec 18, 2007 12:32 PM:

" Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) "




John Adams wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:25 AM:

" ...the country's second president, said "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." "




Thomas Paine wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:25 AM:

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." - The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine "




Washington, pt 2 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:24 AM:

" More from Dr. Wilson: Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a professing Christian. "




More from Dr. Wilson wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:24 AM:

" On why God does not appear in the Constitution: "He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published...show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it.... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those who have been called to administer the government have not been men making any public profession. "




Washington, pt 2 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:19 AM:

" The Reverend Bird Wilson, historian, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, often lamented that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity.” "




Washington, pt 1 wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:18 AM:

" Dr. Moncure D. Conway, author of "The Religion of Washington,": In editing a volume of Washington's private letters for the Long Island Historical Society, I have been much impressed by indications that this great historic personality represented the Liberal religious tendency of his time. That tendency was to respect religious organizations as part of the social order, which required some minister to visit the sick, bury the dead, and perform marriages. It was considered in nowise inconsistent with disbelief of the clergyman’s doctrines to contribute to his support, or even to be a vestryman in his church. "




To Wade wrote on Dec 18, 2007 11:15 AM:

" Actually, like it or not, most of the founders were NOT Christians. Period. Most were Deists of one variety or another. Many religious leaders actually lamented the lack of a strong Christian grounding for our founders, notably George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, and Thomas Jefferson. "




Wade Iverson wrote on Dec 17, 2007 7:37 PM:

" Myrl you are so blinded by your own "brilliance" that you cannot even read what's written. Second time my name's posted, does that establish it for you? Funny how you cannot see the hypcrisy and vitriol in your own posts. It's people of your ilk that take every challenge and confrontation as negative, threatening or mean spirited. "




Myrl Thompson wrote on Dec 17, 2007 11:23 AM:

" Wade/Wadein/What?...Seems that you are indeed the pot calling the kettle, black. In all the posts on Bess's piece, your's are by far the epotome of hypocritical, negative and down-right mean-spirited. You have attacked or threatened everyone that disagrees with you. When people stop learning in life they become set in their ways, dig in their heels, and resort to personal attacks, rather than reasoned arguments. Opinions can be based on facts or ignorance and they run the gambit. Opinions are like hind-ends, everyone has one, just some stink worse than others. Post YOUR name, you may be more civil. "




Wade wrote on Dec 17, 2007 11:18 AM:

" Like it or not the Founding Fathers were Christian! Thus, their thinking was influenced by Christian ethics. If that were not so you dissenters would not have a voice. This includes mr. bess and his rants. Who incidently, makes it a point in every article he writes to demean the Bible, posture politically and comment on controversial cultural matters. He tends to pick the ones that people with Christian values disdain. All this in a "faith" column. What's wrong with this picture? But have your say, though I disagree vehemently with you I support your right to speak out. "




Wade Iverson wrote on Dec 17, 2007 11:09 AM:

" I find it amusing how the "brave" souls who post here find an alternate point of view to be a personal attack. It's interesting to see them hide behind the First Amendment using a single letter to identify their surname while calling intelligent, documented rebuttals "personal attacks." They just cannot seem to refrain from assaulting Christianity either. What a bunch of mindless buffoons! By the way, that's an insult. Can you muster the brain power to can tell the difference, or is your brain "cell" on strike? Oops, another insult! But then supporting bess is too. "




Mark Twain wrote on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM:

" Chapter and verse please if you're going to quote Jesus or state his agenda. I really love the way you bring a charge against Christians not even knowing the faith of the person you're attacking. People like you give humanity a bad name. "




What? wrote on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 AM:

" Mark K you also sink to the lowest levels of hypocrisy calling other posters cowardly for being anonymous while you remain anonymous yourself! Anons indeed! Jerry Prevo is another shallow individual who would be challenged as bess has been. You fail to see the hypocrisy in bess because you're blind and your preconceived notions won't allow you to mature beyond insults. Which you level at those you claim anonymously insult others while you do the same. Hypocrite that you are. P.S. nobody called for state sanctioned religion you cretin! You spell your last name K? "




Mark K wrote on Dec 16, 2007 11:14 PM:

" Personal attacks by cowardly anonymous posters aside, I fail to see the hypocrisy in a pastor writing an opinion column about why separation of church and state is important. I wonder how many of these same anons would object as stridently to Jerry Prevo getting political from the pulpit. Note to simple-minded posters unable to reason with nuance: Separation of church and state is not a blanket call for secularism or godless atheism. Likewise, the Judeo-Christian underpinnings of our democracy are not a mandate for government-sanctioned religion, either. "




Brandon S wrote on Dec 16, 2007 10:56 PM:

" If Wade or Wadein is a Christian I can understand why there is a seperation of Church & State. Didn't Jesus try to win hearts and minds? Some of these statements reminds me of Samuel Clemens saying, "If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian" "




What? wrote on Dec 16, 2007 10:55 PM:

" The First Amendment is not at issue here. You get a grip! Okay? This is a faith column, got it? Not a political one! You see how the repugnancy of bess has readers of this column argueing politics! First Amendment is awesome and ONLY Christian ethics would support such an ideal. That is unless you prefer to be a Muslim. No First Amendment rights in those countries. No siree! You ought to be darn thankful that the Founding Fathers were Christians and employed Christian ideals in setting up this government of ours. That's the truth, if no-one believes it. "




First Amendment wrote on Dec 16, 2007 10:07 PM:

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Get a grip...people! "




Mark wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:10 PM:

" These words,""make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," appeared in a letter Jefferson wrote in reply to the Danbury Baptists. They were concerned that a particular denomination might be supported by the government. They recognized that the Constitution was not specific in this regard and had concerns as they did not wish to have a particular brand of religion thrust upon them as was the case in England. They in no way expected Christian ethics to be removed from government. That would have been to them abominable. In A letter not the Constitution! "




Founders wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:02 PM:

" John Witherspoon Signer of the Declaration of Independence I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. "




Wadein wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:59 PM:

" There's more, much more. But these statements are more than enough to show that these men were Christians. Furthermore, they based our entire system on either the Bible or men who quoted it. Check it out for yourself. Do some research and don't let godless atheists and secularists tell you other wise. "




Founders wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:55 PM:

" Patrick Henry Governor of Virginia, Patriot This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. "




Hancock's will wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:54 PM:

" I John Hancock, being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God. "




Founders wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:52 PM:

" Charles Carroll Signer of the Declaration of Independence On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. "




Jefferson wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:50 PM:

" Closing comment in letter to the Danbury Baptists: I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem. "




Founders wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:47 PM:

" Samuel Adams Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. "




Hey Mark wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:45 PM:

" you might want to pay some attention to Washington and Franklin so as not to become the pick-and-choose types like thompson and bess. They fit the same mold. That is, they are selective in what they use to back up their notions. At the worst that's deceptive, at the least shallow and narrow-minded. "




In addition wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:42 PM:

" Myrl, this's a faith column, not a political one. The contention is and was: The hypocrite bess beating the drum for separation of church and state while simultaneously interjecting political ideology. All as a clergyman in a faith column. You come along, wise sage that you are, to "school" us ignoramuses on history and politics. I love the way you presumed to know my political affiliation and knowledge of history. What “takes-the-cake” is how you compare your knowledge of our Nation’s founders with Dave Barton, this you do with no credentials. You give hubris a new meaning. "




Wadein wrote on Dec 16, 2007 8:31 PM:

" I know you’re not running for office. I also know you’ve run for a House seat at least twice and lost. Doesn’t that make you a loser? Perhaps the reason you lost is your pompous attitude toward us “simple-minded” folk. After all, you presume to know my background in history and consider my opinion to be “light-weight.” Your opinion is vastly more important than mine. Thank you for “blowing-your- own-horn.” Everyone’s a fan of that. Haven’t you lost your column in the Frontiersman too? Why is that, especially since you’re so much smarter than the rest of us? "




Mark K wrote on Dec 16, 2007 3:21 PM:

" Myrl is right. More -- and better -- attention should be paid to Jefferson. After all, he's the one who first wrote about separation of church and state and its place in our fledgling democracy. "




Mark K wrote on Dec 16, 2007 3:20 PM:

" OK. So the exact words "separation of church and state" don't appear in the Constitution. That does not give the religious right any legitimate claim to its drive to Christianize this nation under the color of official government sanction. The First Amendment may not be explicit, but that does not give anyone the right to say they know what the intent was. Clearly, though, it was not about giving any one religion a monopoly -- or giving anyone the ability to deny religiosity to anyone. There's plenty of room for both points of view. "




Myrl Thompson wrote on Dec 16, 2007 1:43 PM:

" Wade, I'm not running for office and never asked for your "vote." I believe in seperation of church and state for practical reasons. (re-read Jefferson below)I believe in freedom of religion, all religions, not just your particular one. (and freedom from it too) As for Ethics reform, I was a leader in the effort for years, back when good conservative legislators were red-faced and offended when I testified for the need, long before it became popular. Don't be weighed down by the loads of history that you don't know, while you float on the light-weight of your opinion. "




In addition wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:32 AM:

" I'm thrilled that they're going to jail! I've thought that should have happened long ago. For instance, Koring and the Evergreen debacle! How he dodged that one and got reelected evades logic. And you should now, being a politician, that "party ideals" have changed over the years. Your comments indicate a disdain for conservative values. Perhaps that's why you should never hold office. You certainly will NEVER get my vote and I will make certain that everyone I know is alerted to your apparent infatuation with liberal ideology and Bess' "well written," "spot-on" article. "




Wade in wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:24 AM:

" Mryl: The Wallbuilders website has much in the way of historical documents on it and it's in no way one-sided. Being a Republican like David Barton is does not make things one-sided. And for the record, there are no politicians that I admire. Furthermore, I never said anything like that. And before you go to party favorites, I'm not Republican or Democrat, I'm an Independent. However, having read some of what you've written I'm not so sure your leanings aren't left. Simply calling yourself an Independent doesn't make you one. As for ethics, doesn't being a politician make yours suspect? "




Craig Snyder wrote on Dec 15, 2007 11:08 PM:

" Myrl -- Yes, someone did claim that "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution. "Reverend" Bess did several times in his article; the very one we're commenting on in this forum. And, by the way, I fail to see where he's "spot-on" about anything, unless you're referring to the recent rantings of the secularists who continue to drum into childrens' minds that "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution. Bess is spot-on and in-line with the likes of the ACLU, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and the rabid Freeedom From Religion Foundation. "




Myrl Thompson wrote on Dec 15, 2007 10:13 PM:

" Wade, no one claimed that the seperation of church and state was in the Constitution. If you are getting your American History from Wallbuilders.com, you are getting a one-sided point of view from a Republican Party activist and self-proclaimed historian David Barton. Try learning history from written first-person accounts, like the Jefferson material that I provided below. Try doing some research at the Library of Congress, the National Archives or other like institutions. I'm sorry so many of the politicians that you admire are going to jail. Now do you really want to talk ethics with me? "




Wade in wrote on Dec 15, 2007 2:32 PM:

" What Mr. Snyder wrote was: "NOWHERE, does the Constitution of the United States mention "separation of Church and State." That's an accurate statement! A state supported religion would be an established denomination like the Church of England. This in no way infers they didn’t want Christian ethics in government. If you are interested in more comprehensive info on this subject I suggest www.wallbuilders.com. There you'll find numerous resources cited which will give you a well-rounded (rather than one-sided and biased) understanding. I would never vote for Thompson (politician) nor give credence to the hypocritical pomposity of Bess (cultist). "




Myrl Thompson wrote on Dec 15, 2007 1:24 PM:

" As one founding father put it..." "Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support rogeury and error all over the earth." (Thomas Jefferson / 1743-1826 / Notes on the State of Virginia / 1781-1785) "




Myrl Thompson wrote on Dec 15, 2007 12:47 PM:

" Craig, I might suggest that you read a bit deeper into American history. Mr. Bess is spot-on in his well written piece. The founding fathers didn't agree on everything but they did agree that they didn't want a state-sponsored church. The Church of England was just that in colonial times and the Americans wanted no part of it when we set up our own country. Most of the men that ACTUALLY fought for Independence were from the dissenting sects, like Presbyterians, Baptists and non-believers. They were the liberals and radicals. The British and their supporters were conservatives and Church-of-England. "




Baptist? wrote on Dec 15, 2007 12:23 PM:

" Bess failed to mention how he and his cultist "Church of the Covenant" got kicked out of the Alaska Baptist delegation. I wonder how well the main-stream Baptists receive him? Dollars to doughnuts he's not welcome by most of them. I wonder why he fails to mention that in his love for being a Baptist? This loon speaks of his Baptist heritage as though it were his birth right or ethnicity! Truly he's a legend in his own mind. "




To qxjz wrote on Dec 15, 2007 11:56 AM:

" To agree with this man you would have to be one of his obsequious sycophant followers! The only accolades he will ever receive are from those who wish him to rubber-stamp their wretched behavior. Mr. Bess' rambling is so far left as to frighten Karl Marx. Qxjz, you need to think for yourself. If you cannot see the hypocrisy in what bess has written here, you are truly blind. "




Incredulous! wrote on Dec 15, 2007 11:47 AM:

" The hypocrisy of this man ascends to heights heretofore unknown! He assaults the politicians who he claims mix religion with politics and then proceeds to enter the fray himself! What a hypocrite! Here you have an admittedly "religious" man, a Baptist by his own account, holding up the banner of "separation of Church and State" while violating this pseudo-tenant himself. This is monstrously hypocritical of him. Yet, no surprise here to anyone who has read bess' other political rants. Each and every one mixed with his hypocritical brand of religion. He's special in a repugnant way, isn't he? "




Craig Snyder wrote on Dec 15, 2007 9:09 AM:

" Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE, does the Constitution of the United States mention "separation of Church and State." Bess follows the tired, liberal tactic of mentioning it over and over in his article to brainwash people into thinking it actually is an amendment to our constitution. It is not, nor was it ever intended to be. Romney made no mistake. Except for liberal-minded, secularist organizations who look to skew the wording of the U.S. Constitution (and thereby marginalize Christianity), there is no tragedy here. "Reverend" Bess needs to take some U.S. history and civics lessons. "




qxjz wrote on Dec 15, 2007 2:45 AM:

" "An obvious correlation is that people can choose to be free of any and all religions." Thank you, Howard, for acknowledging an american citizens right to be free of religous influence if they choose. "