Defense up next in murder trial

January 31, 2006

MARY AMES\Frontiersman reporter

PALMER - The prosecution expected to rest its case today in the Palmer Superior Court trial of a Big Lake woman accused of planning the November 2003 shotgun slaying of her cousin, in order to get his cache of prescription drugs.

Cynthia Estes, 45, is charged with first- and second-degree murder, evidence tampering and arson in the death of David McKinney, 49. On Monday morning, jurors heard a taped interview between Estes and Derek DeGraaf, an investigator with the Alaska State Troopers. The interview took place at Estes' house on Sept. 19, 2004, 10 months after firefighters discovered McKinney's body in debris left from a fire that destroyed McKinney's house.

&#8220I knew my husband was going over to kill him,” Estes told DeGraaf.

But DeGraaf couldn't determine when exactly Estes knew that her husband, Richard &#8220Bart” Deremer, 34, said he was going to kill McKinney or what words Deremer used.

Deremer was tried and convicted in November of first-degree murder, first-degree arson, first-degree burglary, two counts of second-degree murder and tampering with physical evidence in McKinney's slaying and the deliberate torching of McKinney's house.

Estes' speech in the recording was often muted and very rapid, making her answers hard to hear. One noise stood out as constant on the tapes, the rhythmic rocking of the chair where Estes sat during most of the interview.

In court, listening to the tapes of the interviews, Estes sat rocking once more.

Estes told DeGraaf she didn't watch Deremer pack the Remington Model 870 shotgun into a blue duffle bag before she drove him to McKinney's house, but she assumed the gun was in the bag.

&#8220He didn't say he was going over to kill him,” Estes said. &#8220That night, he said he was going to go over there and take care of my cousin.”

Estes said the reason the couple packed radios to communicate that night was because cell phone coverage in Big Lake wasn't always reliable and that McKinney once refused to let her use his land-line phone.

The prosecution admitted phone records into evidence, but, along with the defense, requested time to copy and review the records, which amounted to more than 200 pages.

Estes repeatedly told investigators that McKinney, who was very ill with hepatitis C, threatened her and her daughter, calling in his threats at all hours of the day and night. Neither Deremer nor Estes reported those threats to police.

&#8220Why didn't you give us a call?” DeGraaf said to Estes. &#8220We would have responded, just like we did before.”

Estes had a quick response.

&#8220What, when my kid called?” she said.

On Nov. 10, 2002, 10 months after they were married, troopers responded to a report of a domestic disturbance at the Estes and Deremer residence, according to court records.

Estes also told investigators that the reason she locked the drawer where she kept her prescribed narcotics, syringes and other drug paraphernalia was not to protect her toddler from harm, but to limit her husband's access to her drugs.

&#8220I've been on pain management for six years,” Estes said. &#8220Bart just takes pills. The locked drawer isn't for the kids, but for Bart.”

Estes also admitted that after Deremer shot McKinney with the borrowed shotgun, they returned to get McKinney's prescription medications from his floor safe. When they couldn't read the combination to the safe, Estes said, she returned home while Deremer got a tool from his workplace to cut through the safe door and get the drugs.

DeGraaf asked Estes if they took the drugs or sold them.

&#8220If he sold any, I don't know about it,” Estes said. &#8220But you can only believe about 10 percent of what Bart says.”

Contact Mary Ames at

352-2284 or mary.ames@

frontiersman.com.